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Talk:DragonMaster Negotiator - F(12),Brd(1),RDD(10),WM(7)
The build isnt quite correct, prerequisites for epic weapon specialization and epic weapon focus are greater weapon specialization and greater weapon focus. The feats posted at level 21 and 23 should be pushed back to levels 29 and 30, as the greater weapon specialization and focus has to come first. I think that's a bug with the game involving the WM's Superior Weapon Focus, as the Character Builder Excel sheet on NWNVault also allows Epic to be taken before Greater. 69.248.160.234 05:46, 5 December 2007 (UTC) ---- How about using an Earth Genasi? more STR and CON. My build with these moved the last 6 or so F Levels to the early 20s, so that the Epic weapons feats have time to be taken, the problem is that it requires either RDD9-10 or WM6-7 the last two levels taken. Since WM7 is the entire point of WM, I chose to take all 7 levels of WM at the end, also took the Cleave-Great Cleave-Overwhelming Criticals line. ARHicks00 You're talking about the Terracotta Soldier?(Earth Gensai Ftr/WM/Brd/RDD) As many other players have said, Overwhelming critical isn't very good, though it's better than nothing. His choice to use weapon specialization feats were a good idea since 8 damage is apparent without a critical and on a critical x3 it become 24 extra damage. So the build is both a good critical hit character and he can do solid damage when he can't with Weapon Specialization alone. bard not 1st level? The first level should be bard, otherwise you miss out on 12 extra skill points. For exmaple: 1st lvl Fighter (+2 int mod)= 16 skill points, 2nd lvl Bard (+2 int mod)= 8 skill points, total = 24 or 1st lvl Bard (+2 int mod)= 32 skill points, 2nd lvl Fighter (+2 int mod)= 4 skill points, total = 36 re: Bard at 1st lvl not a good idea, as the game forces you to take 11 CHA... Note on Crit Immunity You may want to note somewhere that all the enemies in the last 1/3 of NWN2 OC, and for most of MoTB, are all crit immune, making the weapon master crit bonus moot. In which case you should focus on Longsword so you still get the fighter weapon bonuses, and Ki Attack with the Sword of the Gith. Also, in the MoTB OC there is a Rapier with Elemental's Ruin that allows one to deal crits to elementals, so weapon focus Rapier for MoTB is an alternative. -JeminiZero PVP situation * Rather than taking tumble to 30. isn't it better to take spot to 30 ? that way on PVP situation enemy rogue or invsible blade would have a hard times feigning you. * Rather than taking greater and epic weapon specialization wouldn't you have better chance taking improve knockdown (due to your extremely high str it would be easy for you to knock most other char) or Improved disarm (you have high AB due to you high STR which makes improved disarm attempt success quite often) * Personally I would lower starting STR to 15 and raise CHA to 12 which allow bard on 1st level, then I could change the great STR feat to other fighting feats (disarm or knockdown). correct me if I'm wrong saving 6 SP is not possible on NWN 2 no ? like what the author put on level 4 fighter skill gain. * I prefer schyte as well since it gets 1.5 str bonuses to damage (two handed weapon). * I Agree that without its ability to crit this build is not that good. * last, as this build relies heavily on its weapon, an enemy with improved disarm would take this char down easily. Swordz 18:11, 6 April 2008 (UTC) :I'm not the author of this build, but I would like to add the following: :*Starting with 10 Cha is good enough as RDD grants +2 to Cha, eventually giving you those 1st level bard spells anyway. Saving 6 Skills points is not possible :*Knockdown is a nice tactic and is good for PvM as well as PvP. In parties, IKD can grant all your other melee fighters +4 to hit while the enemy is prone. It might be worthwhile giving up some of the other feats for it. :*Disarm on the other hand would primarily be a PvP feat, as most enemy monsters can't be disarmed. :*For PvP, tumble is still important, as it provides +3 AC. However, you could boost Spot by chanlleing points from Diplomacy (since talking won't save you in PvP). Of course it would be the DragonMaster Spotter rather than Negotiater. :*All that said, this is a negotiater build and therefore clearly aimed for campaigns. It would require some adaptations to make it PvP worthy. :JeminiZero 01:14, 7 April 2008 (UTC) Update from Author to 2.0 I did an Update of the DragonMaster Negotiator to 2.0 I played around with Battle of the Builds and these other great modules and tried to maximize this builds power. Some things needed to remain true to the build: - WM 7 - RDD 10 - full Criticals (no longsword/greatsword alternative) - one of the following conversation skills on maximum (33 skillpoints): Diplomacy / Indimidate / Bluff / Appraise - Overwhelming Critical ---- Some of my other thoughts were: - in PvP - what do you need cleave / great cleave for? in PvM it makes sense - but how many 1on1 enemys will you face where it makes any sense at all? - they could normally be swapped for improved power attack or impoved disarm, but you need them for Overwhelming Critical so they stay for this build - Spot was another thing that came to mind, whirlwind can hit stealthed enemys, but seeing them would be better - knockdown/disarm should be implemented - battle of the builds made that clear to me - if possible: more strength for knockdown - if possible: deity hoar - for compatibility with my stormlord build recitation spell - Overall more PvP compatibility There is an Falchion in MotB: Transcendent Edge with the bonus feat Spirit's Ruin that should allow MotB to be easier because you can do criticals on creatures that are immune to critical attacks - I just don't know if it actually works ;) --TopAceOfEarth 17:12, 7 April 2008 (UTC) ---- Comments Is Spot 33 instead of Taunt 33 a good idea? I'm still not sure if it makes more sense to have the Constitution of 14 Charisma 12 and 2 less Strength point and about 60 more hitpoints or the new 2.0 version, comments? I'll also take another a look at the Bug Greater/Eüic Problem, what do other people think - Power Build at all cost or ueber-legit? TopAceOfEarth 16:00, 8 April 2008 (UTC) :For Spot vs Taunt, do what I do. Max Diplomacy for Campaigns, and max Spot for PvP (because no matter how high your diplomacy, it won't affect other players). Max Taunt in both cases. :I would say go for Legit, and note that the Exploit exists as of patch 1.XX, and give the choice of either exploit using or non-exploit using feat. (E.g. at level X take either Greater Weapon Spec or, use exploit and take another Feat). That way, anyone using the build has the option of using the Exploit if he so chooses, and at the same time, if the exploit is suddenly fixed, your build won't be invalidated. :JeminiZero 08:28, 9 April 2008 (UTC) Knockdown feat? Would it make sense to replace Knockdown with Epic Prowess? You get +1 bonus on all attacks. A slightly higher chance for a critical. Since I can't get improved knockdown in the build without taking another feat out (there are only Specialization, Focus & Critical Feats taken, besides the WM qualification feats), I only got "normal" knockdown. According to http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Size it's only a +1 bonus I'm missing out on(against humans if I read it right), if I don't have improved knockdown in. So the effect from improved knockdown to knockdown is negligible, right? Therefore I could keep knockdown in and don't worry about it. Is this right? TopAceOfEarth 21:54, 17 April 2008 (UTC) :Size bonus from Improved Knockdown counts for +4 for each difference step in the Size category (as per the Grapple Modifier, not the AC/Attack modifier). As noted on the Knockdown page, "The attacker makes a d20 roll modified by his strength bonus, and the difference between his creature size and the target creature size times 4." :The increase in your Size category also supposedly means you can attempt to knockdown creatures 1 size larger than normal. As a medium creature, you can only normally knockdown large enemies. But with Improved Knockdown, you can attempt it against Huge creatures. But I am not sure if the Game engine works correctly in this regard. :For PvM, I would actually drop Great cleave, which is reliant on the assumption that you can kill your next foe with 1 hit. I am of the opinion that Great Cleave is only worthwhile with Frezerker Supreme Cleave (then the assumption changes you can drop your next foe in 2 hits). :For PvP, you might consider dropping Power Attack-Cleave-Great Cleave altogether, as there is only 1 foe and no one else to cleave. Shift your fighter feats earlier and grab Improved Knockdown, Epic Prowess and Armor Skin instead. :JeminiZero 02:35, 18 April 2008 (UTC) ---- @JeminiZero: Thank you for explaining the Size modifier to me. I never really wanted to get away from the Overwhelming Critical - TyrTemplar over at the nwn2 bioware forums told me "repeatedly" (in the same paragraph) that Overwhelming Critical is not good and makes no sense - his arguments were rather shallow. Yours made more sense and made me think that it might be an advantage in PvP. So I tried it. I played around in Battle of the Builds (useing the same Items the DragonMaster Negotiator had) with Improved Disarm, Epic Prowess, Toughness, and Armor Skin instead of Power Attack, Cleave and Greater Cleave and Overwhelming Critical. I had taken Power Attack, Cleave and Greater Cleave only because of the Overwhelming Critical requirements. Almost any hit I made was a Critical for ~ 160 damage. Although I must say that a fight against other melee'er with disarm is more like a game of chance - either you hit him with disarm or he hits you - which is somewhat boring. Knockdown seems to be the same thing although more useful in PvM. The Divine Soul still banged me with unarmed strikes after being disarmed. I'll try some imroved knockdown next. I think I do some more tests with this noncleave version. TopAceOfEarth 18:22, 18 April 2008 (UTC) :No problem :) :JeminiZero 06:08, 19 April 2008 (UTC) 186 Skillpoints? I don't understand how the build has 186 skillpoints. With 13 INT, a Human Fighter gets 4 SPs per level, a Bard gets 8, and the DD and WM each get 4. That's 16 SPs at 1st level, 28 levels of +4 SPs, and 1 level of +8. By my count, that'd be 136 SPs. Where're the other 50 coming from? -- May 14, 2008 The Negotiator has 14 INT at Level 1 - his INT increases to 16 @ RDD 8 (or lvl. 13 in this build) and Intelligence provides a bonus equal to the ability modifier. Also Humans receive an extra skill point each level. Thats where your missing Points are coming from - see http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Skill_point for more Information. TopAceOfEarth 15:13, 15 May 2008 (UTC) feats unavailable at lvl 1 the feats it says take at level 1 are not there when i create a character. mobility, dodge and able learner. ---- The Feats should be there - Do you have the latest Patch installed? Anything in your override folder? Do you have Dex 14 (for dodge, mobility)? Otherwise there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to select the Feats. TopAceOfEarth 17:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC) had the same problem,you have to choose Bully as background. I know I'm kinda diggin this topic out, but I want to play again and this problem still occurs. You can't choose Mobility and Able Learner at lvl1 even if you take Bully. Im playing at patch 1.23. Low HP for melee build? - shouldnt it be said in CONTRA list that this build has quite low HP as for melee power build? 376 HP is not that bad, anyway if you manage to reach lvl 30, you most likely will have an +x constitution item that will give you a large boost to this number. You could change monkey grip or another feat to toughness for +30 but that won't help you as much. This build is a damage dealer and not a damage taker, although he/she can take quite a beating with it's nice ac boosted by RDD levels. TopAceOfEarth 15:25, 26 June 2008 (UTC) I've had problems with this build as the Inspire Courage Song didn't activate for me with only 3 Perform. I've had to go in with an editor and set it to 4 in order to get the benefits of the song. Could the reason for this be one of the newer patches? I only dusted off NWN2 recently and remember having played a similar build in the past and also had 4 points in Perform then. Other than that - cracking build and very solid for the OC. 12:10, March 8, 2014 (UTC) Because you have 8 Cha at first, you get -1 to your Performance. When you get +2 Cha from your RDD levels, you can sing with 3 Performance. 19:49, September 20, 2015 (UTC) Guys, it doesnt allow me to choose the RDD even though I have the requirements for it... Some help, please?